For those of you just joining us, welcome to Community Table  SF– the latest series of blog posts sharing conversations held directly with our community leaders about top of mind industry issues. Community Table was formed from the collective efforts of Matt Nycz and Kate Chase of Brite Productions and Heather Elder and Lauranne Lospalluto of Heather Elder Represents with the idea that there is nothing more powerful in our industry than education.

 As a reminder, each Conversation Starter was directed to one person with a general discussion ensuing.  Not surprisingly, many of the answers were similar to those of our LA and NY colleagues.   Therefore, rather than sharing the entire conversation, we included the original question and then the quotes and notes that were most relevant.  Please note, often times the person leading the conversation spoke most often.

And with that, we welcome you back to the table.

Please note, there will be eight posts shared over the month of April.  Tune in every Tuesday and Thursday for the latest installments. Link here to read  The  Appetizer Part I and The Appetizer Part II.   To see our other Community Table posts from LA and NYC, please link here.

San Francisco Participating Art Producers

Owen Bly:                               Art Producer/Freelance

Kate Stone Foss:                     Art Producer/Freelance

Cameron Barnum:                   Art Producer/BBDO

Shayla Love:                            Art Producer/Razorfish

Suzee Barrabee:                       Art Producer/Goodby Silverstein & Partners

Dan Southwick:                       Art Producer/ Goodby Silverstein & Partners

Kristin Van Praag:                   Art Producer/Heat

Jacqueline Fodor:                    Art Producer/Venables, Bell & Partners  

Rebecca Lanthorne:                 Art Producer/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners

Analisa Payne:                          Art Producer/Freelance

Justine Barnes:                        Art Producer/Duncan Channon

Marissa Serritella:                   Art Producer/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners

CONVERSATION STARTER #7

The Cost Consultant: Value vs. Cost

What do you think is the #1 value of a cost-consultant? Also, will you explain in more detail how you typically interact with them throughout the bid process?

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

I have strongly held opinions about cost consultants. I don’t think the MBA has a place in the creative process and yet they have injected themselves and that is the cause for a lot of bad creative. I think the quality of the creative has gone downhill in the last ten years, in part because of this. It interjects another person who only cares about money. They are totally out of context.

Marissa Serritella/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners

I don’t see very much value in a cost consultant. It’s what we’re there for. So when we know we have to interact with them, it in turn changes how we interact with an agent, because we know the consultant is going to want to see certain changes, so we limit what we negotiate up front with you. That’s how I’ve experienced it anyway – it becomes a bit of an unnecessary game, which I don’t like for it to be. Plus, we don’t like cutting things down to bare bones – would rather have some buffer to know we’re covered for small incidentals, but they often ask to scale it back too much.

If you get one that’s reasonable (rare) then it could help to have an extra set of eyes on something that I may have missed – but more often than not it’s more of a hindrance than a help. And it adds a bit more time to the schedule for all the back and forth.

Suzee Barrabee/Goodby, Silverstein & Partners

There are a few established cost consultant firms and you end up working with them over and over again. Over time you get to know them and if you’re lucky, you establish a good relationship with them. And they know you are not trying to run around them.

The value is that with a lot of our clients if you get it past the cost consultant, you don’t have to have that conversation with the advertising or marketing client. Once it’s vetted by the cost consultant, it’s fine. It’s one of those jobs that wouldn’t be on my top 10 favorites list.

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

Take us through the process. Do you start with the cost consultant at the beginning of the job, do they know it’s coming?

Suzee Barrabee/Goodby, Silverstein & Partners

We start with a bid meeting and give them the initial specs so everyone is on the same page and they understand the project and what you’re bidding. This is usually over email.

They have to approve your bid specs and then you send this to your photographers. After the initial bids, the cost-consultant will usually give us a target number they would like to reach.

Kristin Van Praag/Heat

Do they suggest different photographers? And when they ask you to come down, is it because they know it can be done for less?

Suzee Barrabee/Goodby, Silverstein & Partners

It’s usually a percentage that I have to come down by, 10 or 20%.

Lauranne Lospalluto/Heather Elder Represents

Sometimes it’s almost counter-productive. If an agency is bidding three photographers and three tiers and all those numbers go in and the lower numbers water down the process.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

I do feel that over the years, there are a few who have gotten strong. However, I’ve had a lot of challenging experiences with cost consultants because they don’t always have a good handle on the reality of what it costs to produce a photo shoot.

When they budget a producer for $350/day when the actual cost is $1,000/day it’s not a helpful conversation. They’re either trying to undercut me or they buy paper and don’t buy photography.

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

And then I’m in the position of having to educate them and I resent it. I don’t want to educate them.

Lauranne Lospalluto/Heather Elder Represents

Once, we got an email from one saying that his wife gets her haircut for $100, so how could a hair and makeup person be $1,000 a day.

More recently, we got an email asking if we could get a producer for $550/day. They know what it takes and we’ve worked for this client many times. They should be answering that question for us. It was a high-end shoot and of course we couldn’t get a producer for $550.

In our experience, the better ones have art buyer backgrounds.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

An experienced art producer is a cost consultant.

Jacqueline Fodor/Venables Bell & Partners 

I work with cost consultants and get ahead of it and educate them and why things cost what they do. And if I know my creative want to work with a photographer who is a little more expensive, I come back to the rep and say you’re going to lose this solely based on money.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

Where this is helpful is that you can then say to me, “Heather, your location scouting is twice what someone else’s is.” And then you and I can have a conversation not about money, but about approach. I can check with you to make sure you are OK with where I think we can come down and you become part of our decision-making process as opposed to us playing art director.

Analisa Payne/Freelance Art Producer

I’m having a good experience with a cost consultant right now mostly because she used to be an art producer and gets that her job is not to give input on the creative and not to go over the bid but more to ensure that the costs are competitive.

I was talking with a TV producer and the cost consultant she was working with for a TV project knew a certain director charged a different amount on several other projects, so she was able to keep his fees in line and competitive. So from experience so far it’s to make sure things are competitive and are not out of whack based on industry standards for a specific city.

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

Who does the cost consultant report to?

Suzee Barrabee/Goodby, Silverstein & Partners

Usually it’s the marketing director or an outside company that has been hired by the client.

Lauranne Lospalluto/Heather Elder Represents

I’m on a project right now where the photographer shot a campaign for a client and then, for budget reasons, they decided to work with photographers of a different caliber on future shoots. Well,  now we’re back to shooting the campaign again. And the cost consultant wants the costs to come in line with what they were paying the lower cost,  emerging photographer.

How do you handle this when it comes across your desk?

Analisa Payne/Freelance Art Producer

That is not apples to apples. You need to be very clear that it’s not. When you’re dealing with different levels, it’s a hard one.

Suzee Barrabee/Goodby, Silverstein & Partners

Yes, sometimes can win this one and sometimes not. It’s really hard.

Rebecca Lanthorne/BSSP

Sometimes the client will go to bat with purchasing or procurement to say, ‘Even though this photographer is higher, this is who we want to shoot with.’ And this helps you a lot.

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

Who presents the bid to the client? The cost consultant? Or do you take it back and explain that it’s been vetted by the cost consultant?

Suzee Barabee/ Goodby, Silverstein & Partners

It depends. Usually that process is established with the client.

Analisa Payne/Freelance Art Producer

Right now I have a form I have to fill out. We’re having to triple bid so using a triple bid form. And then there’s a call with the cost consultant and the client. This is after the initial bid has been approved by the cost consultant.

Cameron Barnum/BBDO

I’ve had a lot of success with cost consultants. I think initially the hairs went  up on the back of my neck, that someone was looking over my shoulder and second-guessing the decisions I was making. But I turned around my thinking and started to see them as an ally and saw them as everyone who could get everyone at the table to agree on how we were going to do things.

I’ve certainly had cost consultants who have argued over the dollar-per-head for lunch. But it doesn’t seem to be the right job. It’s just to be sure that something isn’t completely out of whack for maybe the number of days you are shooting.

It is tricky when they get involved in the creative discussion. I don’t think that is their job at all.

Jacqueline Fodor/Venables Bell & Partners 

The conversation needs to be about the value on the creative side. You can’t put a value on this. And at this point, I get my art director and creative director involved. So the conversation turns to being about creative and not about money.

So many times it gets put on the account people who aren’t strong enough to sell the creative to the client. If you approach the client with a comp about the creative instead of the account team who talk money, you aren’t really talking about money. You are talking about the creative and putting value to that creative.

So when you go to the client and have to have one of the difficult conversations about money, you’re not really selling them on money. You’re selling them on working with a photographer who might be more expensive but will be able to get them what they want.

You’re spending money anyways so you may as well do it right. If I can just stay quiet on that call and let the art director or creative director talk with the client, it is about the creative and makes it much easier to sell it to them.

I now bring my creative(s) to any meeting I have with the client to talk about money. They are on the phone with any conversation with the account people and cc’d on every email. They are involved in every single detail.

Any meeting with the client, the creative director is there and cc’d on every email. Involved in every single detail. It’s never, ‘I know what the concept is’ and then I walk.”

No one has complained that they don’t have time. They are engaged and want to be a part of it and at that point you have an ally and you are fighting for something.

Lauranne Lospalluto/Heather Elder Represents

We get worried when we get an email from an account person. Or sometimes it’s literally a forward from the art buyer asking us if we can ‘do something about this.’ No explanation.

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

When that happens, bounce it back to us.

[Laughter]

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

How often does this happen?

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

It happens often enough that we are aware of it.  It happens when people are busy.   We are not part of the initial conversation and just get an email that we need to cut by a certain amount.

We get that we need to cut, but we are left wondering what are the reasons for cutting? Who is asking for the reauction?

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

There should definitely be some background and explanation. And it shouldn’t be ‘See below’ and it’s a chain of emails.

Lauranne Lospalluto/Heather Elder Represents

It should come with some opener or explanation as to where the motivation is coming from?  Agency? Client? Account team?  Cost consultant?  Tell me what your point of view is. Are you saying ‘damn right’ or are you saying ‘Oh my gosh, we have to partner on this and figure out how we can make this work.’

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

I look at the relationship and remind myself that we work really hard on the estimates and every detail of the estimate. And all they are looking at is the bottom line and not the approach. So I try to remind myself that they ARE paying attention and here is an extra chance to explain how we are approaching something.  Maybe that will get communicated more strongly to the client rather than the bottom line.

Shayla Love/Razorfish

And your client might not trust you. And when everyone is pressured to get costs down, I’d love to have the support of someone else who has given it a stamp of approval and can say ‘She’s not crazy.’

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

What is your approach to educating your creative director?

Shayla Love/Razorfish

Recently we did a triple bid, but it didn’t help. Our agency is under so much pressure to get costs down and is so expensive and account for and bill everyone’s hours that at the end of the day, there is no money left for production.

Suzee Barrabee/Goodby Silverstein & Partners

There is this whole idea that the art director wants to shoot as well.

Kristin Van Praag/Heat

We have a guy named Phil at my agency.

[Laughter]

He can do anything. He’s amazing. We deliver on something miraculous and there’s one shot they decide they want and they say ‘Send Phil down there.’ And then the next time, they want Phil to shoot it. And there are no rights attached. And I have to tell them that Phil isn’t a photographer.

Shayla Love/Razorfish

We have a Phil named Craig. And if people took into account what they’re billing the client for his time, his day cost is as high as some photographers.

Rebecca Lanthorne/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners

When this comes up, I ask who’s going to run and get the wardrobe and props and return everything? Explain that you can’t do production. We’re used to in-house people for models but they’re also an account executive who has to bill their time.

Kristin Van Praag /Heat

This happens so much right now. I don’t know how to explain it to them. We’re getting a lot of younger people and we have to educate them.

Shayla Love//Razorfish

Sometimes it works.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

This is helpful for photographers to understand as well. They have a linear understanding—you get the job, you hire someone, and you shoot it. That there’s another way agencies are thinking and other resources that they have so it’s not surprising when get asked to shoot something for $10k.

Group

But Phil can. Or maybe Craig.

Please note, there will be eight posts shared over the month of April.  Tune in every Tuesday and Thursday for the latest installments. Link here to read  The  Appetizer Part I and The Appetizer Part II.   To see our other Community Table posts from LA and NYC, please link here.

 

And, as always, thank you  Allison McCreery of POP Blog for your flawless transcription and partnership on this project.

 

For those of you just joining us, welcome to Community Table  SF– the latest series of blog posts sharing conversations held directly with our community leaders about top of mind industry issues. Community Table was formed from the collective efforts of Matt Nycz and Kate Chase of Brite Productions and Heather Elder and Lauranne Lospalluto of Heather Elder Represents with the idea that there is nothing more powerful in our industry than education.

 As a reminder, each Conversation Starter was directed to one person with a general discussion ensuing.  Not surprisingly, many of the answers were similar to those of our LA and NY colleagues.   Therefore, rather than sharing the entire conversation, we included the original question and then the quotes and notes that were most relevant.  Please note, often times the person leading the conversation spoke most often.

And with that, we welcome you back to the table.

Please note, there will be eight posts shared over the month of April.  Tune in every Tuesday and Thursday for the latest installments.  To read The Appetizer Part I, please link here.  To see our other Community Table posts from LA and NYC, please link here.

San Francisco Participating Art Producers

Owen Bly:                               Art Producer/Freelance

Kate Stone Foss:                     Art Producer/Freelance

Cameron Barnum:                   Art Producer/BBDO

Shayla Love:                            Art Producer/Razorfish

Suzee Barrabee:                       Art Producer/Goodby Silverstein & Partners

Dan Southwick:                       Art Producer/ Goodby Silverstein & Partners

Kristin Van Praag:                   Art Producer/Heat

Jacqueline Fodor:                    Art Producer/Venables, Bell & Partners  

Rebecca Lanthorne:                 Art Producer/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners

Analisa Payne:                          Art Producer/Freelance

Justine Barnes:                        Art Producer/Duncan Channon

Marissa Serritella:                   Art Producer/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners

COMMUNITY TABLE – THE APPETIZER PART 2

Conversation Starter 4:  Email or Phone?

Conversation Starter 5:  Templates

Conversation Starter 6: Transparency & the Triple bid

CONVERSATION STARTER #4

The Bid Process: Email or Phone

And to ensure a successful estimating process, which do you prefer as your primary communications tool (email or phone) and why?

Justine Barnes/Duncan Channon

I typically start with email regarding the spec sheet, visuals and calendar so it’s all in one place and we have something to go back to. And sometimes it’s easier during the follow-up to just pick up the phone and talk through something. But in that situation I make sure to do a follow-up email reiterating what we discussed as well as an updated spec sheet and the discussion reiterated in the email.

It’s important to have an email to go back to. I’m sure you’ve all been there—when there is a job from two years prior that you need to reference and some small detail was discussed on the phone and there’s no paper trail.

Marissa Serritella/Art Producer BSSP

I also prefer email. If you need to refer back to something you discussed then you have it in front of you rather than relying on what you remember from a call. And you can email when the time is right for you, after you have all the necessary info, rather than be caught off guard at what may not be a good time for a call.

Also it’s often either too noisy to really have a good chat on the phone, or so quiet and uncomfortable to have everyone in your section listen to your phone conversations.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

I find that even now, when I call someone and don’t reach them, I’ll send them an email that says ‘I just left you a voicemail.’ You don’t know if someone is listening to their voicemail. Any time there is a phone interaction, there is still an email.

Justine Barnes/Duncan Channon

You never know if someone has to be out of the office or if they’re sick or it’s a busy Monday filled with meetings, so voicemail isn’t as efficient. A follow-up email is a good idea.

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

You’re still answering your phones though by and large?

[Laughter]

Justine Barnes/Duncan Channon

Yes, unless we don’t recognize the number.

[More laughter]

Kate Stone Foss/Freelance Art Producer

I think it’s nice to start with an email as well because you have a more productive conversation and you can really go into the details of the job.

Shayla Love/Razorfish

I prefer to set a time for a call so I can make sure I’m there and can schedule the time. And sometimes the creative need to be on the call as well.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

What is your expectation when you have a first conversation with a rep versus a photographer?

In our group, we are the first ones to pick up the phone so we can get a little more information and we know exactly what is happening before the photographer gets involved.

Do you see it as duplicating your effort and have the conversation twice? Or is this not an issue?

Rebecca Lanthorne/BSSP

I think it’s nice for the reps and producers to talk sometimes and then the photographers and creatives once we’ve hashed out some of the simpler stuff.

Shayla Love/Razorfish

It’s good to be on the same page with budgets and then give the rep an opportunity to talk with the photographer and approach it with whatever parameters are in your mind.

If it comes up on a call, the creative don’t consider these things.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

So do you think it’s odd if a rep is not on a creative call?

Rebecca Lanthorne/BSSP

I like having the rep on the call.

Suzee Barrabee/Goodby, Silverstein & Partners

I think it’s important for rep and/or producer to be on the call. I want the person who is scheduling and in charge of the budget to be involved.

Shayla Love/Razorfish

Sometimes the creative are excited to talk with the photographer and will call them directly.

Justine Barnes/Duncan Channon

I’ve been in situations, to your point, where you have a good relationship with the photographer, but make initial contact with the rep. Then the rep will send an email and cc the photographer and get them involved. In a situation like this, I will just go to the photographer because that’s where it will end up anyways. But this isn’t common.

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

Do you have the expectation that commercial photographers should be business savvy or do you think of them as predominantly creative?

Analisa Payne/ Freelance Art Producer

I think it’s helpful if they understand and acknowledge that there is a process as far as changing your idea or approach and that there are cost ramifications worked out before you can proceed.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

How would you handle a situation where there is a creative call and a photographer is fully aware that whatever is being asked of them is not possible for the budget. However, you’ve got the creative and the agency on the phone call and the creative hasn’t set expectations and everyone is excited.

Then we get the phone call that there isn’t enough money. Do you prefer that the photographer speak up on the call and let everyone know it isn’t possible or would you prefer that you get the phone call from us?

Analisa Payne/Freelance Art Producer

I would prefer that the photographer or someone in the know speak up and say that it isn’t possible but present options instead of saying yes or no.

Dan Southwick/ Goodby Silverstein & Partners

Hopefully on that call when everybody is riffing, somebody can subtly rein it in a little bit.

Suzee Barrabee/Goodby, Silverstein & Partners

In my experience, there is usually one person who takes this role.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

Photographers are very uncomfortable saying, ‘Let me have Heather, Lauranne or Kate crunch the numbers with Suzee and make sure this is doable for you before we all get excited.’

Suzee Barrabee/Goodby, Silverstein & Partners

Usually what happens in this situation is that it comes down to logistics and the photographer will know that they can’t get it done in that short a time. And this is the parameter —what they can get done in a day—is the clear boundary.

Lauranne Lospalluto/Heather Elder Represents

Do you find yourself getting a shot list or specs from your client that you know are unrealistic and you broach this on the creative call with, ‘I know this is a lot to get done in the time frame we are asking.’ Is it led this way?

I’m in the middle of this right now, so I’m intrigued.

Kristin Van Praag /Heat

A lot of my creatives only want a creative call. They don’t want the heaviness of production discussed. They’re a brain trust and want to listen in and go away and figure out what the tough conversations need to be afterwards.

Justine Barnes/Freelance Art Producer

This is what I like to do—have the conversation with the rep and photographer up front and give them the Statement of Work and talk about the project. Then have the creative call where the Art Director and photographer can discuss the creative aspects of the project. At the end of the call in greater detail, what our options are, how we can achieve what this, and answer any questions that may have come up during the creative portion of the call.

Suzee Barrabee/Goodby, Silverstein & Partners

This has happened so much lately. Sometimes, it starts on the call and just grows. I try to stay focused on what we can do and not promise everything.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

It’s great to have a wish list from the client so we can discuss priorities. We’re happy to try and do everything, but is how much we think we can get done. And anything else is gravy.

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

So you discuss the shot list on the creative call?

Dan Southwick/ Goodby Silverstein & Partners

If it’s coming from the client, that is different than if it’s coming from the creatives. I try to set this up as soon as possible, to discuss what we are thinking about and talking with the rep about this.

I try to frame it as ‘We’ll do our best.’

Kristin Van Praag /Heat

I think that’s really important. To Suzee’s point, you get this list from the client and a red flag goes up because the budget is tight or there isn’t enough time.

It’s important on our end to set expectations with our team and the client and to let them know it is really tight and we’ll see what we can do, but there is no guarantee.

CONVERSATION STARTER #5

The Bid Process: Templates

We imagine that you get a lot of bids from various templates. So are there any preferences on which one you like best and why?

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

No. So long as it’s easy to understand.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

What about the projects where you get a bid from me with line items for the photographer’s cost and a line item for the producer and I attach the producer’s estimate to that. Are you ok with that?

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

I like having it all broken out with a summary page followed by detailed pages.

Jacqueline Fodor/Venables, Bell & Partners

Me too. I like having everything spelled out. I know if I have to negotiate down, I can easily find where I can possibly discuss cuts.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

So the summary and itemized are really important. But we’re moving towards a trend of having the producer’s estimate and attaching it.

Marissa Serritella/Art Producer BSSP

As for bid templates, we see all different ones. I think it would be great in a way if it was more standardized. Often we have to take your numbers and reorganize them into an agency Excel chart for client so they can compare apples to apples in everyone’s bids. Sometimes that gets tedious trying to pull them apart and put them back together differently. We just try to simplify and summarize the categories, like: Assistants, Stylists, Props and Wardrobe, Locations, Casting, Talent, Travel, Equipment, Transportation, Insurance, Misc…).

In a way it would be nice to have you fill out our similar template but we’d still like to see it a bit more broken out the way you normally give it to us, so we know what goes into each number (sometimes client asks for more specifics so it’s good for us to have it handy). But, I’d be happy to tell you what categories I have to summarize and fill in for client to make it a bit smoother when I have to re-plug it into my format.

Jacqueline Fodor/Venables, Bell & Partners

Do you have producers you work with on specific jobs? I’ve had producers tell me they didn’t work on the initial bid.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

Unless a producer is not available for some reason, if they do the initial bid they are the producer on the job.

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

If your estimate looks elegant, you get bonus points for this.

CONVERSATION STARTER #6

The Bid Process: Transparency and the Triple Bid

Is triple bidding mandatory at your agency and when so, do you think it is important to let the photographer know up front that they might not be in the top 2?

Marissa Serritella/Art Producer BSSP

Triple bidding isn’t always mandatory at an agency – it isn’t here, but it has been at other agencies I’ve worked for. However, it often depends on client – even if it’s not necessarily policy here, a lot of clients want us to go through the exercise.  In some ways I think it can be helpful, but it really depends on the creative – sometimes I think it’s just not warranted, and when that’s the case then I’m really not happy to have to ask an agent bid it for basically no reason. I like to try to tell them if that’s what’s happening.

Also, not sure that it always helps to tell the photographer if they’re the reco – I’d rather them focus on trying to think about what is best for the creative and see what the outcome is. If someone is challenging for their time then I may be more inclined to let them know they’re a strong contender. Also, a lot can sometimes depend on the creative calls on the front end and how that all goes, I’ve seen someone who was top choice fall down to #3 because the call didn’t go well – so I don’t like to say anything until that all plays out and we’re sure.

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

I’ve never worked anywhere where it’s been an agency policy to get three bids. It’s client policy. I am uncomfortable telling someone if they are in the top two or top one or five. I think there is some usefulness to it because you know where you stand as a rep. But I think you’re also spinning your wheels and go ahead and bid on this and don’t want anyone to feel that way.

I did a Comcast job five years ago with top fashion photographer in NY. Everyone else came in between $150 – $160k. He was the number one choice and he came in at $350k and I knew I wasn’t going to be able to get him into the range. So I was able to show that to the creatives and he was no longer the top choice. So there was no need to tell someone up front that I was using them as cannon fodder.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

There’s value on both sides. There’s a part of me that would like to know so I can set my photographer’s expectations. But at the same time, maybe they won’t work as hard on the treatment or whatever they are doing to sell themselves. Their ego might be bruised. So if I legitimately don’t know, they put in all the effort.

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

There is a tangible cost to the photographer and hopefully the reps know. We were told recently we were the triple bid and the photographer rallied. And we rode the mantra of being the dark horse.  And we really approached it from this perspective.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

There is really value in that. If he/she puts their best foot forward and engages that art buyer or creative they leave with a good sense of who that person is even if they are not the right choice for that job. They make an impression.

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

I wouldn’t let someone bid who I didn’t think had a chance of getting the job. And I don’t want to stomp on that right off the bat.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

So what would be really helpful, and it doesn’t happen very often, tell me I’m third bid if you’re not going to engage me like I’m a first bid. If you’re not going to give me the time, the effort and the information to do a really good job for you, then tell me I’m the third bid and I won’t spend the time and the effort and get my photographer as engaged. Or when you have a chance, answer my questions or be available for my call or email. Because this does happen a lot, that no one gets back to us and we assume we are a third bid.

Lauranne Lospalluto/Heather Elder Represents

Or we submit a bid and never hear anything back. Not a ‘thank you’ or ‘we got your bid.’ Just radio silence.

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

Do I ever do that?

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

No, you guys never do that. No one sitting at this the Community Table has done this. And this is why we do this, to have this two-sided dialogue. So people who read this can take it all in and have a better understanding and maybe have a different reaction sometime down the road.

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

It’s all about personal relationships. Either making one with a rep whom you don’t know or someone you are regularly dealing with. You don’t want to ignore or be a jerk to someone you will work with again.

Lauranne Lospalluto/Heather Elder Represents

I do think communication is key. Whether you’re on the receiving end of getting a job or not.

Jacqueline Fodor/Venables

That’s why I’m up front about a triple bid. I don’t call a producer just to bid.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

I love that call. Please call me and I’ll give it to you in five minutes.

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

It wouldn’t occur to me as a human being to say “You’re likely not going to get the job.’ But if it’s useful, that’s great.

Jacqueline Fodor/Venables

I’ve realized that it’s such a small community and everyone talks. All the reps know each other and call each other. But it’s more than likely that everyone out there knows that you’ve called so and so and so and so. For you to think they’re not is silly.

When I learned this, I decided to be 100% transparent and be honest and tell people ‘You’re the favorite and please work for it.’ And it becomes a collaboration.

I got burned once. I was trying to be secretive and the person knew the other person who bid the job.

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

Right. And the producer has the studio on hold.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

When we hear from another rep that their photographer got the job and yours didn’t and you didn’t hear it from the Art Producer, it’s disappointing.

Jacqueline Fodor/Venables

Had a more junior photographer call the senior photographer who was also bidding to consult about numbers. And I’d been transparent, so told them talk all they want. It was liberating.

I think one of the most important aspects of my job is to take care of relationships. So then when I need help getting something done we take care of each other.

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

I think about how other art producers read the blog and how it’s a shared community. An online producer told me she learned a lot about print production from it.

Jacqueline Fodor/Venables

I’ve learned so much from reading about how more senior art producers bid. We’re all working in a vacuum.

Lauranne Lospalluto/Heather Elder Represents

There aren’t really any more secrets to how business is done. I don’t have to share everything about how I communicate with our photographers. But as far as fees, it’s all out there. No one can do my job like I can, so I’m happy to put it out there.

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

That’s why Car-Max is doing so well. There are no more salesmen. The salesman used to control all the cars. And there were things we didn’t know, but now it’s much more of even playing field.

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

If I have a relationship with a rep, I’m open.

Jacqueline Fodor/Venables

That’s true. If I don’t have a relationship with a rep or know them, I’m a little more guarded.

Please note, there will be eight posts shared over the month of April.  Tune in every Tuesday and Thursday for the latest installments.  To read  The Appetizer Part I,  please link here.  To see our other Community Table posts from LA and NYC, please link here.

 

And, as always, thank you  Allison McCreery of POP Blog for your flawless transcription and partnership on this project.

 

Welcome to our 3^rd series of posts where we share the results from our conversations held directly with community leaders about top of mind photo-industry issues.  Community Table was formed from the collective efforts of Matt Nycz andKate Chase of Brite Productions and Heather Elder and Lauranne Lospalluto of Heather Elder Represents with the idea that there is nothing more powerful in our industry than education.

And we held this event in San Francisco, hometown turf for not only advertising luminaries with names such as Riney, Goodby and Silverstein but also Elder,Lospalluto and Chase.  So for this one, the Art Producers who joined us were long-time friends and neighbors that have been instrumental in keeping SF on the advertising map, who have played a key role in the creation of stand-out imagery for such national clients as Foster Farms Chicken, Sprint, GM, Comcast, The North Face, EA Games, Mini Cooper and Priceline.  So we invited them to start the year with us, add their hard-earned insights and voices on estimating to our series, and over a lunch in early January and a breakfast in January they were more than happy to do so.

 As a reminder, each Conversation Starter was directed to one person with a general discussion ensuing.  Not surprisingly, many of the answers were similar to those of our LA and NY colleagues.   Therefore, rather than sharing the entire conversation, we included the original question and then the quotes and notes that were most relevant.  Please note, often times the person leading the conversation spoke most often.

And with that, we welcome you back to the table.

Please note, there will be eight posts shared over the month of April.  Tune in every Tuesday and Thursday for the latest installments.  

San Francisco Participating Art Producers

Owen Bly:                               Art Producer/Freelance

Kate Stone Foss:                     Art Producer/Freelance

Cameron Barnum:                   Art Producer/BBDO

Shayla Love:                            Art Producer/Razorfish

Suzee Barrabee:                       Art Producer/Goodby Silverstein & Partners

Dan Southwick:                       Art Producer/ Goodby Silverstein & Partners

Kristin Van Praag:                   Art Producer/Heat

Jacqueline Fodor:                    Art Producer/Venables, Bell & Partners  

Rebecca Lanthorne:                 Art Producer/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners

Analisa Payne:                          Art Producer/Freelance

Justine Barnes:                        Art Producer/Duncan Channon

Marissa Serritella:                   Art Producer/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners   

COMMUNITY TABLE – THE APPETIZER: PART 1

Conversation Starter 1: Sharing Information

Conversation Starter 2: Terms & Conditions

Conversation Starter 3:  Removing usage After the Shoot

CONVERSATION STARTER #1

The Bid Process: Sharing the initial information

How do you present information to a photographer for a bid? 
Is it a formalized process at your agency or do you just send an email with whatever information is available.

Analisa Payne/Freelance Art Producer

“It varies. I’ve been fortunate enough to set it up as I see fit. I prefer to have a spec sheet. I highlight points in an email, but think it’s important to have everything in a form that has very specific information about the job that I know or to date and any visual reference that would go along with it. I try to think of any question that might come up along the way. And if I don’t have an answer for it, I note that.

I have a pet peeve about email when you get into a chain situation and points that need to be addressed are spread across multiple emails or communications. And I think things get overlooked often in those circumstances. So I like to have everything in one place even if I have to update and revise it from time to time throughout the process. I try to keep as much as possible from slipping through the cracks because a quick email to say something important may not get read or missed and then after the fact you’re trying to clean up a sticky situation.”

Suzee Barabee/Goodby Silverstein & Partners

“We have a lot of different ways. We start with a Statement of Work when bidding the job and then it’s formalized in the contract once the job is awarded. For Chevrolet, we had a specific estimate document we used for bidding.”

Kristin Van Praag/Heat

“We don’t use a formal document because we do not art buy as much as some other agencies, so formalized forms were not created. We send an email with the comp.  We do however have formalized purchase orders. It is just a little more flexible with us. I haven’t run into problems yet. But if I did, I would formalize it.

Marissa Serritella/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners

I’ve done it both ways. It’s more flexible here than where I was previously (and busier) so often it’s an email with all the info we have to share at the time. It’s important to share everything you know about it, but sometimes an organized email does the job just as well as a form. Is there something you prefer?

Lauranne Lospalluto/Heather Elder Represents

“Having a spec sheet to work from is very helpful so we see everything that is required and don’t follow up with small detail questions that probably annoy you.”

Kate Stone Foss/Freelance Art Producer

“I think it’s important when presenting to the client to have it all on one document that is very clear so everyone knows what they are getting. When they are looking at the estimate as well so we are all on the same page. It’s an evolution as well – things change and are cut.”

Kristin Van Praag/ Heat

“The spec sheet or initial email serves as a completion report at the end.”

Kate Stone Foss/Freelance Art Producer

“I cc as few people and include as much information as possible on the spec sheet to avoid tagging important questions onto the very bottom of a long email.”

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

“Each shoot is its’ own beast. I call first to warn about what’s coming and then clarify with an email. With reps you know, it’s fun to call and chit chat.

At Goodby we wrote an email with bullets and went over any questions on the call. I liked being able to customize it—each email was tailored to the needs of the specific shoot so a form wasn’t necessary.”

Lauranne Lospalluto/Heather Elder Represents

“Some art buyers like talking with us and others are hands off. There are plenty who don’t call.”

Jacqueline Fodor/Venables

“I wish I had a form. I have worked with art buyers who are very organized and have everything documented and checklists. I’m always envious, but that is not me.

Many times I have to triple bid, so I send the same email to all the agents and if there’s a favorite I let them know. After I send the email, I pick up the phone and call right away.

The email includes the comp, potential shot list, usage, and any other details. This is just a framework. The other party won’t know the complete scope of work until the creative have a conversation with the photographer.”

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

“Do any of you ever send the same request to more than one photographer at the same time?”

Jacqueline Fodor/Venables

“Yes, especially if it’s a triple bid, but it’s a separate email to each rep. I’m transparent and again, will tell the rep if their photographer is a favorite.

It’s rare, but sometimes we’ll want to work with all three. But the creative generally know who know who they want to work with. But I need to be prepared to present all three.”

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

“How often does the second or third choice rise to the top after the call?”

Jacqueline Fodor/Venables

“It’s rare, but it happens. You may think you know who you want, but until the phone call and there is a love connection between the photographer and art buyer nothing is final.

I work on the relationship with the rep. But if there’s a new photographer then it comes down to the relationship between the photographer and the creative. And there is a chance they might want to work with them. You never know, so I try to be prepared. A wild card can always be thrown in there.”

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

“Have you ever worked with a form?”

Own Bly/Freelance Art Producer

“I have worked with a spec sheet, but I prefer to structure it my own way. Everyone has their own personal style. I have run departments and as long as each art buyer or production manager makes it work, whatever works is fine. If this means they want to work with a form, that is also fine. I just prefer not to.”

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

“I find that when we receive forms it’s a much more formalized process and there is less communication with the art buyer because all the details have been included on the form.

To me it doesn’t matter at all. I just hope than when we get an email and details are left off for conversation, the other party is available for calls and emails.”

CONVERSATION STARTER #2

The Bid Process: Terms and Conditions

Why is it that you send the terms and conditions at the very end of the process?”

Marissa Serritella/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners

I’ve worked at agencies where the terms are sent up front with the comps and bidding materials. It’s true I suppose that other than that, we don’t have them available until it prints on our PO’s. I don’t think it’s meant to be shady though. And I think it’s ok to ask for it if needed. I guess our main concern is the usage, which we do spell out up front. I’m not sure if photographers would need to see them or benefit from seeing them up front. But again, I’d share if they ever asked.

Suzee Barrabee/Art Producer Goodby Silverstein & Partners

“We can’t write the Purchase Order until the job is awarded.”

Shayla Love/Art Producer Razorfish

“Since my agency is digital, we don’t have a lot of existing contracts with photographers already, so typically everyone is a new vendor. I’ve been including the Terms and Conditions forms they are going to sign in early emails and highlight all the details, including the rights agreements. All of the details that are in the vendor agreements that they have to sign are very big important and should affect their bid or give them an opportunity to opt out.

I get really scared if they’ve already estimated and I have to say “Oh, by the way, you have to sign this document.” It can take months to get to that point.”

Suzee Barrabee/Art Producer Goodby Silverstein & Partners

“I call out all the rights in the terms and conditions and will tell the artists to cross out the section that says we get all the rights.”

Shayla Love/Art Producer Razorfish

“I think it’s different at every agency. Our agency is different than any ad agency I’ve worked at. Everything is on paper and there’s no formal system in which I have to get an approval. Technically, even if you come in to just show books, we are supposed to get all of your photographers individually signed up as vendors.  They want this on file so that if a conversation about a project transpires we are covered.  Because of copyright, the rep cannot be the vendor, the photographer needs to be the vendor.

Analisa Payne/Freelance Art Producer

“It’s always been my understanding that the terms on the front of the purchase order supersede those on the back. When I was at Hal Riney, this was a big deal because people would write the terms and conditions on the back and the powers that be in finance would have none of that. So we ended up being very clear about the Terms & Conditions on the front took precedence. So when it said that they were work for hire on the back, we made clear that we weren’t purchasing the copyright and this calmed everyone down.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

“More so in the last year, we’ve gotten terms and conditions that are asking us to give away quite a bit including the right to use the images for self promotion. To be awarded a job and then find that out is very challenging. And even though you can’t generate that paperwork ahead of time, maybe there’s a way to communicate that information so I can run it by the photographer to help them make a decision. Or so that at least they go into it with their eyes wide open and opt out if they prefer.”

Unknown

“If the photographer doesn’t agree to the terms and conditions, we go to the client and generally they will say “They can use it after five years” or “They can use it on their website,” The document is just a template they use and they are sometimes open to changing it for things like self promotion.

Rebecca Lanthorne/BSSP

“We use the same form for designers, illustrators and photographers so we have people cross out what they’re not comfortable with, like “work-for-hire” or “release of copyright.” I work with a set system that generates this paperwork that doesn’t allow us to edit the legal terms.”

Suzee Barrabee/Goodby, Silverstein & Partners

“We’ve spent weeks negotiating the terms and got to a point once where we agreed to disagree which is kind of scary. But it’s a certain risk level, especially when dealing with indemnity.”

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

“We had to hire a lawyer for one negotiation. There were extensive terms and conditions, statement of work and purchase order. And it was overwhelming and a $3,000 undertaking.”

Suzee Barrabee/Goodby, Silverstein & Partners

“A big one is sequential liability which means that the photographer doesn’t get paid until the agency gets paid. If the client doesn’t pay the agency, we technically aren’t obligated to pay the photographer. This happened due to all the bankruptcies in the dotcom era.”

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

It used to be that Purchase Orders had the Terms & Conditions specific to that job typed up on the front with the standard Terms & Conditions on the back. And it was written by lawyers to cover not just photography but a whole range of stuff. And in particular the right to retain ownership since all agency POs say they own whatever you do.

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

Wouldn’t it be more logical to send the Purchase Order or at least the Terms & Conditions before or during the bidding process because you can veer off into a lot of negotiation on the purchase order?

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

In any Purchase Order you’ve gotten from an agency, there will be conflicts in Terms & Conditions every time because they’re not specifically tailored to art buying. They’re pre-printed.

I try to outline them to that specific job. It’s almost like the pre-printed Terms & Conditions are meaningless but they’re not. What I type in is specific.

Jacqueline Fodor/Venables

I’m going to put everything into the PO that pertains to that job. And by that time, I’m not going back to the client.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

To your point, if there is a discrepancy, if PO says work-for-hire or they own the copyright it’s too late to negotiate. In those situations it’s very important to read it and know that Terms & Conditions on your PO superscede prior negotiations. You have to protect yourself..

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

When you give us a bid, it will say that it superscedes anything we give you and our POs will say the same.

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

If you had a choice, would you send the PO before the estimating begins?

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

No, because every single agency PO has conflicts. I’m not talking about what we type in. I’m talking about what is already in the standard PO.

In 25 years I’ve only had a problem with this after the fact once. It sounds like you guys have had more.

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

I come from the post side and retouchers never got Purchase Orders. With some clients, there is so much in the PO that doesn’t apply. I thought wouldn’t it be cool to get it before the job because if someone is saying ‘You are assuming all liability for this shoot,’ that is a big deal. And that’s pretty much on every purchase order.

And after it’s awarded, everyone is excited and then you get the Purchase Order and put on the brakes. There are these terms that could really affect your accepting this.

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

Although I would say these guys probably don’t want to get in to pre-discussions with people about things that aren’t going to happen 100% of the time.

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

I don’t think there’s any answer beyond tailoring the POs to specific jobs and requires the lawyers to get involved.

Kate Chase/Brite Productions

Wondering how organic this process is because we do a lot of cross-offs and sometimes we are told that no cross-offs are allowed. These are the terms and you have to make a decision and you’ve already been awarded.

Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer

If it’s a licensing or usage issue and usage is spelled out in what we type in, we’re trying to give you guys a leg to stand on if there is a 001% chance something goes down at least you have what we said on the Purchase Order.

CONVERSATION STARTER #3

The Bid Process: Removing Usage After the Shoot

How do the Terms and Conditions address a situation where a photo shoot occurs but the client no longer wants to pay for usage?

Suzee Barrabee/Goodby, Silverstein & Partners

“If the day rate, expenses and usage are estimated as separate line items, then I always put in a clause that states that the photographer doesn’t get paid the usage fees until it is approved by the client.”

Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents

“Telling a photographer that the images are not being used and that the client does not want to pay for them (especially if it has nothing to do with the quality) is a really hard conversation to have after the fact.  If the day rate and the usage fees were not divided – which does happen sometimes due to budget etc – then my inclination would be to still charge for the full fee.  But the situation may require us at the time to determine what is day rate and usage after the fact and just charge for that.  Regardless, going back to the photographer after the fact is not easy and not often fair.  It really needs to be addressed up front or the photographer needs to be clear in their own Terms and Conditions on how this is handled.

So much of what we do is expectation management and this situation is a perfect example from both sides.

The Bid Process: Usage Time Frame

What if the usage is for one year and the images don’t get used until six months after they are shot?

Rebecca Lanthorne/BSSP

“I always state clearly that usage starts on day of ‘first insertion, post or use.’”

Suzee Barrabee/Goodby, Silverstein & Partners

“With talent, you have to include the date of use in contract otherwise the talent agent can claim that the shoot date is the first day of usage.”

Analisa Payne/Freelance Art Producer

I’m finding that I need to manage this up front with the client so we are all on the same page with regards to the usage period because if no dates have been put out there six months later, it will be assumed you are extending beyond the initial period.”

Please note, there will be eight posts shared over the month of April.  Tune in every Tuesday and Thursday for the latest installments. To see previous Community Tables posts from Los Angeles and New York City, please link here.

 

And, as always, thank you  Allison McCreery of POP Blog for your flawless transcription and partnership on this project.