For those of you just joining us, welcome to Community Table SF– the latest series of blog posts sharing conversations held directly with our community leaders about top of mind industry issues. Community Table was formed from the collective efforts of Matt Nycz and Kate Chase of Brite Productions and Heather Elder and Lauranne Lospalluto of Heather Elder Represents with the idea that there is nothing more powerful in our industry than education.
As a reminder, each Conversation Starter was directed to one person with a general discussion ensuing. Not surprisingly, many of the answers were similar to those of our LA and NY colleagues. Therefore, rather than sharing the entire conversation, we included the original question and then the quotes and notes that were most relevant. Please note, often times the person leading the conversation spoke most often.
And with that, we welcome you back to the table.
Please note, there will be eight posts shared over the month of April. Tune in every Tuesday and Thursday for the latest installments. Link here to read The Appetizer Part I, The Appetizer Part II and The Main Course Part I, The Main Course Part II and The Dessert Part I. To see our other Community Table posts from LA and NYC, please link here
San Francisco Participating Art Producers
Owen Bly: Art Producer/Freelance
Kate Stone Foss: Art Producer/Freelance
Cameron Barnum: Art Producer/BBDO
Shayla Love: Art Producer/Razorfish
Suzee Barrabee: Art Producer/Goodby Silverstein & Partners
Dan Southwick: Art Producer/ Goodby Silverstein & Partners
Kristin Van Praag: Art Producer/Heat
Jacqueline Fodor: Art Producer/Venables, Bell & Partners
Rebecca Lanthorne: Art Producer/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners
Analisa Payne: Art Producer/Freelance
Justine Barnes: Art Producer/Duncan Channon
Marissa Serritella: Art Producer/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners
COMMUNITY TABLE – DESSERT PART 2
Conversation Starter 11: Behind the Scenes: Value of a Shot List
Conversation Starter 12: Behind the Scenes: Integrated Usage
CONVERSATION STARTER #11
When your client requests a behind the scenes shoot attached to a broadcast production, does not having a shot list make them value the process less than having a shot list? What does behind-the-scenes mean to you?
Suzee Barrabee//Goodby Silverstein & Partners
Behind-the-scenes is asked for a lot. More about ‘Wouldn’t it be great to capture the process?’
Jacqueline Fodor/Venables
Yes, in general no one talks about end use and so no one has thought out the content. Without a shot list, we would end up shooting a lot of footage that they aren’t going to be able to use for anything because there was no direction. Everyone’s asking for it and it’s challenging.
Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer
Yes, it is. And it’s very common now. And automatically, a behind-the-scenes shoot attached to a broadcast production is devalued right off the bat because the priority goes to the broadcast team when you are shooting behind-the-scenes on a broadcast shoot.
Marissa Serritella/Art Producer BSSP
I don’t think they value it less because they don’t have a shot list for a BTS shoot – they may just want it to be a more casual behind the scenes look at things without seeming staged. The last shoot I worked on that had a BTS shoot actually had an extensive shot list for it though, so hard to say. Depends on the client I guess. But if they ask for it and they’re paying for it I’m sure it’s just as important to them even without a shot list.
Shayla Love//Razorfish
For interactive, the b-roll ends up in all these places that we didn’t anticipate or didn’t know about.
Suzee Barrabee//Goodby Silverstein & Partners
I think it goes back to having a general bucket for content, especially with the capacity of the new cameras. If shooting for something particular and have a shot list, it is valued.
Kate Chase/Brite Productions
We are getting photographers asked to shoot behind-the-scenes. When they get to the shoot, they don’t have a shot list and aren’t prepared. So it turns into more of a mini shoot. So the question is, what is a behind-the-scenes without a shot list and with a shot list?
Lauranne Lospalluto/Heather Elder Represents
We get these requests and they say they don’t know if we’ll have access to talent and want to use for print and online. Seems to be all over the place and then they’re disappointed. But there was no intention in the first place.
Rebecca Lanthorne/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners
You have to treat the behind-the-scenes as its own creative project with an internal call to discuss the project, goals and usage so there are no regrets.
And so you can hire the right photographer and rent the right equipment and organize the talent with what you’d like them to do and also manage the creative team’s expectations. I almost feel like a real shoot list is needed and some open-ended.
So the production company is hiring the photographer, not the agency.
Justine Barnes /Duncan Shannon
What Rebecca is describing is its own shoot, not a behind-the-scenes video. If you’re asking talent to work with you or directing them or shooting product this is a shoot.
Rebecca Lanthorne/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners
Yes, that’s why I’m saying you need a shot list. Even if it’s just to see how the photographer or director does their thing. Or are we looking for stills to use somewhere else? Even documentaries have a shot list.
Jacqueline Fodor/Venables
It is really a shoot like any other. An art buyer needs to manage it and have a call with the broadcast producer and director. It becomes a big production. It’s not just that someone’s going to sneak in and take pictures.
Or they ask for a side shoot, maybe talent or props on white for use on website. That can happen, but the broadcast producer needs to be involved.
Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer
In that case, since you are already subject to the whims of the broadcast team, it will help if you have a shot list so you are less devalued and more prioritized.
Jacqueline Fodor/Venables
It’s never happening the day-of. It can happen before or after or maybe during pre-light. But anytime I have to leverage broadcast crew or talent, that goes back to everyone having to talk. I have to talk with public affairs about talent appearing in behind-the-scenes still. We have to talk about this ahead of time.
Suzee Barrabee//Goodby Silverstein & Partners
I’ve had real issues with talent asking for day rate when shooting stills. It’s really tricky. SAG doesn’t specify what they make for still shoots.
Shayla Love/Razorfish
If you just want something to blog about or put on FB, the production company will hire a local photographer for this.
Jacqueline Fodor/Venables
When I’m asked for a behind-the-scenes shoot, the first thing I tell them is that I have to talk with the broadcast producer and team to see if they want a shooter on set.
Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents
Do you know how many times I get asked to do this and can’t get access to this person? How can I bid without talking with them and knowing if I can use their hair and make-up person or their stylist? We have to produce this together. For example, do we need an additional assistant for the hair and makeup person? Can we share resources?
Jacqueline Fodor/Venables
What’s been successful for me is to go directly to the director and ask if they have a still shooter they are comfortable with and use them. You have to go through the production company. I look at their book, pray it looks good and then happy to work with them.
Suzee Barrabee//Goodby Silverstein & Partners
You do have to have a plan, especially if you’re stepping on a director’s set. You have to be cognizant of who is running the set.
Shayla Love/Razorfish
If the production company has hired the photographer they have more ability to move because the production company is expecting them. If it’s an art buyer coming in, you don’t know where communication has stopped and started.
Rebecca Lanthorne/Butler, Shine, Stern & Partners
We’re working on a Priceline shoot right now and it’s similar. Because of Shatner’s availability, we don’t have two days for Broadcast and Print. We are being very strict about the time the photographer will be on set because it might only be twenty minutes to get what you need.
Lauranne Lospalluto/Heather Elder Represents
We recently bid on a job and got the estimate thrown back because a junior art buyer didn’t know how to bid video.
Kate Chase/Brite Productions
Jacqueline’s title is the perfect new title. Integrated Production Lead.
Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents
For us, it can become an exercise in futility because we end up not getting it. It can happen in the wrong way and then the client will kill it. Obviously your agency recognizes this if they created a role specifically to address items like this.
Jacqueline Fodor/Venables
I’m very sorry to say I’ve killed about three behind the shoots in the last year.
CONVERSATION STARTER #12
Behind-the-Scenes: Integrated usage
When your client requests usage for their ad(s) to be viewed in magazine online subscriptions, do you think that we should categorize this as print or interactive/world wide web?
Marissa Serritella/Art Producer BSSP
I would say that falls under a web use rather than print. Though I prefer to say unlimited electronic media use.
Kate Chase/Brite Productions
We were negotiating for something that was running in the Martha Stewart print magazine and magazine app. The art buyer felt it was the same usage since the app was essentially the magazine.
Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents
I would differentiate it by finding out what the online subscription quantities are and the mailed subscription quantities are and if the mailed subscriptions are smaller, your costs should be lower. It’s based on readership/viewership.
Jacqueline Fodor/Venables
When you are providing files for the app, they are digital files. So there is already a differentiation. I think the question is, ‘Where do I view it?’ It’s not online. It’s digital. I’ve always thought it was digital. So the magazine already recognizes this. So it’s interactive or digital. And you can figure out the cost based on the number of people who view it.
Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer
A magazine can sell their advertising as appearing both in print and online, so they are selling as a value-add.
Jacqueline Fodor/Venables
When negotiating, would it fall under unlimited usage online? I would think it would.
Owen Bly/Freelance Art Producer
I agree.
Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents
You could either include it in general online or spell out online except for digital apps.
Jacqueline Fodor/Venables
This is a very interesting conversation. When it comes to usage, print has such a huge number and online is worldwide and costs have been lower.
Heather Elder/Heather Elder Represents
I see online prices going up.
Jacqueline Fodor/Venables
Online has gotten even more complicated now with social media which needs to be included and estimated as well.
These are the topics that come up at Community Table that we can then bring back to our agencies.
And, as always, thank you Allison McCreery of POP Blog for your flawless transcription and partnership on this project.